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Hi everyone! Today we are joining the Positive Pet Training Blog Hop! This month's them is "training mistakes" but any positive training posts are welcome. Thanks so much to the hosts and be sure to click around on the linky list to see the other ones!
Ah... training mistakes. There's so many places I could go with this but I'm going to take you on my own personal battle with myself. Fighting the "Frustration Demon."
If you've visited my blog before you might know that I am a cross-over trainer. What that means is that I used to use correctional (or traditional) based training techniques and crossed over to using positive training methods. One of the things I don't talk about very often is that I do tend to get frustrated sometimes. I struggle with staying patient. Both of my dogs are sensitive and Zoe is more sensitive than Phoenix. If I happen to breath wrong (SIGH) during training sessions Zoe will think she's in trouble and she will shut down, which is even more frustrating. Let's face it, dog training takes a certain level of skill and lots of practice to get good at it. It's not an instant thing and it's not always easy to train a dog. Even the best trainers and the best dogs have bad days.
When you've used punishment based techniques in the past, it's really easy to slip back into using them because they tend to be reinforcing for the handler. In example, the dog pulls on the leash so the handler jerks the leash, the dog stops pulling momentarily and the handler is then reinforced for jerking the leash. The dog didn't learn anything other than "sometimes my owner is scary and OUCH!" (Not to mention you could really hurt your dog's neck if the leash is attached to the collar or a halti.) Whatever is reinforced is likely to be repeated which is why you see so many people jerking the leash and then it basically becomes nagging and the dogs start to learn to ignore it. Which is why leash corrections tend to fail.
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| "Please don't jerk the leash, mom! I'm sorry! I didn't mean to chase the bunny! | " |
Zoe and I both had a bad day 2.5 years ago. That was seriously not my finest moment in my dog owning and training history. :( I was very, very upset and frustrated with Zoe because it was our last time at the beach before moving to California (I was already emotional because I didn't want to move to CA and thought I'd never see this beach again) and she blew off a recall to chase a rabbit. She would not stay with us, left the beach and was up in the parking lot trying to find the bunny. She could of been killed by a car but try explaining that to a dog. It was terrifying. She would not behave at all for the first hour we were there and she ended up being stuck on the leash. Very, very unusual for her. I remember thinking that I had put way too much training on her for her to act like that. (Perhaps forgetting dogs are sometimes dogs and do dumb things) It was extremely embarrassing and I was SO mad at her. I still feel really badly for being mad at her and for jerking on her leash. I work really hard on myself and with training her so that hopefully we never have that happen again. I know that it was not her fault she went after the rabbit, I set her up to fail. It was totally my fault.
Everything is training. If you're not training the dog, then the dog is training you or you are training you. It's all about reinforcement, even if it's so subtle that you don't realize it's happening. This is something that I constantly battle with myself on. I am constantly working on myself to be more patient and to be less frustrated. To not jerk the leash when the dog pulls or sigh heavily when they don't get something I'm trying to teach. To calm my brain when it's screaming "WHY don't you GET this!?! We've done it 100 times!!" Occasionally I forget my dogs are dogs. Getting frustrated is definitely a training mistake. It does not help anyone, dog or human and it can really upset the student because they have no idea why mom or dad is upset. It can also really promote "learned helplessness" and can shut a dog down which you don't want.
So what do I do when I get frustrated and patients are wearing thin? I immediately stop what I'm doing. I don't want to accidentally use a correction and reinforce myself for using corrections. Honestly, I really don't want to slip back into my old methods so preventing that is key. A break can really help both the person and the dog. It definitely helps me to refocus and calm down. I will also switch dogs and work on something different and easy with the other dog. Switching dogs and switching behaviors has helped immensely. Before I go back to training the original thing that caused the frustration I will ask myself why the dog is not getting the behavior I'm trying to train. Do I need to break that behavior down into more simple steps? I will also check the dog over to make sure there isn't something physically wrong with them, especially if they refuse to do a known behavior. I also try to remember that dogs are like us and sometimes they have off days, too. So if that seems to be the case we stop for the day and try again the next day.
Try to remember that when a dog does something wrong or your training is not working it's never the dog's fault!
If we are out walking and they are pulling (pulling is a HUGE pet peeve of mine), I will stop walking and wait until I can get their focus back or if my husband is with me I will hand the leashes to him so I can have a break. I will also think about competing reinforcers and if there's something I can do to make the dog want me and what I have more than the other distraction. Maybe I need better treats or I need to move further away from the thing that's distracting them. Maybe I need to whip out the super cool toy that Phoenix loves. What can I do to get that dog to focus and pay attention to me? I think about what I can do better in my training to make walks easier on all three of us. Maybe the dog just needs to sniff that bush for a little while and I can give them some slack and wait for a minute or two. Their lives are too short to waste on being mad about sniffing a bush.
I would also like to note that if your dog is doing a behavior out of fear (like pulling on the leash to get away from a scary thing) at that moment they are too afraid to learn. It's best not to force them or work on any training until they are out of that fear.
Positive reinforcement training is all about being creative with your training. That's part of the fun. Sometimes it can be hard to be creative and to troubleshoot what's going wrong by myself so when that happens I will chat up one of my training friends and we work on it together. I honestly believe that you can train anything and solve any behavioral problem with PR you just have to be creative and consistent and most importantly be patient. If you are frustrated with the dog, stop what you're doing and take a break. Try to see it from the dog's point of view and see where the hole in their understanding is. Break it down into smaller steps. Don't give up and don't be afraid to ask for help if you're stuck.
Have you gotten mad or frustrated with your dog? What do you do when that happens?
As always I'm here to help, if you have any training questions feel free to email me or facebook me. If I don't know the answer it's very likely that I know someone who does. I also have a ton of resources available on my training page.
Taking a break is the best way we know of to stop frustration. There is no point in continuing if we aren't doing what we are supposed to and Mom is totally frustrated.
ReplyDeleteYep, absolutely!
DeleteThis is an excellent post. I truly believe your point that aversive training techniques are self-reinforcing for the trainer. And that they're a human response to frustration.
ReplyDeleteWhich is why the best trainers never seem frustrated by anything.
Thanks! I tried to make it as honest as possible. Sometimes I fail as a dog trainer but I don't talk about it very much. The best dog trainers make training look easy but they make mistakes and get frustrated sometimes, too.
DeleteI see so many untrained dogs. It's a shame too. To train them properly is just part of loving them.
ReplyDeleteHave a woof woof day you two. My best to your mom. ☺
I totally agree, Sandee!
DeletePeople are just people. They make mistakes like we do. But since we're dogs, we usually forgive right away because we know we are loved.
ReplyDeleteYep, you're totally right! I try to remember that, too! Everyone makes mistakes sometimes!
DeleteI used to get so frustrated, usually with myself, when we had reactions on our walks. There have been times I thought I wouldn't be able to hold onto Leo, and I've given the leash over to Rob. (Actually, we've been doing this a lot more since I hurt my ribs.) I still feel like I'm the only one who can dispense the treat reward correctly.
ReplyDeleteI've lightened up though, and somehow I never blame the dog. It's NEVER Leo's fault. It's usually mine or Rob's. Rob's not too crazy about that mindset. But the best attitude to have is, "Oh well, he barked at that bike. It happens."
I've been working really hard on training myself to have a better attitude, like what you were saying "oh well, he barked at a bike" when the girls make a mistake. Moving on from the mistake has been a challenge for me. I get really caught up in that feedback loop of "what ifs" and "if only I had done x" rather than saying, "oh well, the dog did x, we'll try to be better next time". So I need to work on that more! Thanks for the reminder! :D
DeleteUsually when we're training, I don't get too frustrated with Barley (although today's post is about frustrations with myself, which then lead to frustration for Barley). She's a really quick learner and a big part of my job is teaching developmental students, so breaking things down into simple steps is how I teach/train naturally. My frustration with her usually comes when we're not training and she's supposed to just relax and do her own thing--like when I'm doing dishes or cooking dinner. Those are usually the moments when she decides to eat out of the litter box, chase her kitty brother, dig the carpet, or root around in my purse--and she becomes totally unresponsive to any commands. When that happens, I say "Why don't we take a time out?" and she goes in her crate (with the door wide open) while we both calm down. I've also started bringing her mat into the kitchen when I do dishes so that she can relax closer to me and we can avoid the naughtiness before it starts.
ReplyDeleteThat's how Zoe was when she gets into the mindset of going after a small furry animal! She used to be completely unresponsive to cues. Sometimes she can still be that way! It's so aggravating but I know I just need to work on it more. My stupid human emotions get in the way sometimes of being able think logically about stuff and I hate that about myself. More often than not, I am frustrated with myself and I know that dog is never at fault. They just do dog things and sometimes those dog things are not exactly what we want.
DeleteOh and on a side note, we've recently had some trouble with Zoe getting into the litterbox, too and so we ended up putting a cord on the bathroom door so it only opens a tiny amount and the cats are the only ones who can fit through the crack.
This is interesting. In most aspects of life, when possible, taking a break and coming back later with a fresher and more positive mindset is the key to more success. We're only human and dog, experiencing normal emotions when trying to reach goals.
ReplyDeletesumskersandearlskers13.blogspot.com
Yep, you're totally right. Sometimes I let my human emotions get in the way of being a good dog trainer and I'm working really hard on training myself to be better. I am more patient than I as 2.5 years ago when the incident with the bunny on the beach happened but I still try to work on myself so that I don't react poorly when the dog's do end up making a mistake.
DeleteI am not a patient person. But I think I have been learning a lot of it since I started training Luke. I have learned to walk away when I'm frustrated (sometimes it takes me a little longer than others because I don't like to feel like we're giving up). Both Luke and I feel better if we end things on a positive note. I think what we learn in dog training can even cross over to every day life. There are a lot of situations where we need to stop, take a deep breath, and perhaps move on to something different.
ReplyDeleteI also think it's important what you said about understanding that sometimes dogs are just being dogs. I have to remind my hubby of that when he gets frustrated with them barking or digging holes in the yard.
I used to be the same way! I felt like if I walked away from a training session that I was obviously a bad trainer. I didn't realize until later that it wasn't that and I absolutely did benefit from the breaks as well as the dogs. If I am frustrated, I do try to end it on a good note and then we break, if I can.
DeleteMy husband is the same way and sometimes I have to remind him of that, too!
I think frustration is inevitable in dog training. Atka is a super sensitive one as well, but I'll get frustrated when something he's done 100 times suddenly makes him uncomfortable. I have to step back and remember there is a reason he's not doing it. This usually happens with my photography area. Every now and then he will just refuse to go there. I've realized it can be the littlest thing - like a lamp 6 inches closer than normal.
ReplyDeleteSensitive dogs are so tough! I think it's actually harder to work with a sensitive one than one that has a "hard" personality. Sometimes Phoenix will do the same thing like you described of Atka and it's always weird to me. I'm like "WHY!?!" LOL
DeleteEither we take a break or I ask for cues he's very familiar with, if we're doing shaping for example.Mr. N is like Zoe where at even the slightest sign that I might not be happy, he shuts down so I have to be extra careful and peppy.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I do the same thing. I try to switch to an easier one. Even if it's as simple as "sit" and then here's a treat. Then we break and try again later. I try to end things on a good note. Zoe will start to display cut off signals if I even look at her wrong if she's feeling sensitive.
DeleteSuch an excellent and honest post! I struggle with frustration, too. I've never been a traditional trainer, but I'm ashamed to admit that sometimes I can see the appeal (for the trainer) of that instant and easy correction.
ReplyDeleteI get frustrated with Pike a lot because he is SUCH a soft dog. If I raise my voice (not even yelling or being loud, just not talking super softly) he shuts down. He's so timid with training when he has to think for himself, and it frustrates me beyond belief. Especially with having Nola who practically goes too fast for me to keep up with, it challenges how I train in a way I didn't expect.
Thank you! It is really hard to work with a soft dog. I definitely think it's way more challenging than working with a hard one! If you even look at Zoe wrong she will start displaying cut off signals. It sucks.
DeleteI, too, am a "crossover" trainer, and I can get frustrated too. It's taken me years to remove various "reprimands" from my words and tone that are holdovers from my traditional training days. And, like you, I often stop training or switch training games to prevent my impatience from growing. That's especially important for Shyla - she needs all training to be fun so that she doesn't shut down.
ReplyDeleteMy toughest challenge is when my dogs unintentionally hurt me by yanking on the leash. With my spine problems, the pain can be excruciating, and my reaction is to "correct" them (and even yell at them). I've worked hard at changing this knee-jerk reaction but it's tough. My latest approach is simply to sit on the trail, waiting for the pain to abate. If I can tie them to a tree next to me while I sit there, that's the best.
My friend, a very very pro-positive training person told me to "cut myself a break" when I admitted how ashamed I was of my reaction to my dogs hurting me. I guess she's right - we are all human, and I can't expect myself to be perfect. (but that probably won't stop me from trying!)...
Great post.
I think that anyone who is severe pain would react the same way! I have nerve damage in my wrist from grooming and so when they pull on the leash I will have pain, too and I think that's why pulling on the lead is such a pet peeve of mine. I think your friend gave amazing advice and thank you so much for sharing it with me. I'm really hard on myself, too.
DeleteTo answer your question, no we rarely get frustrated with the dog on a personal level. We may get frustrated with the situation but not the dog. I think that may be the difference between our traditional training and positive training. When a dog has learned a command and chooses something different, it is not that the dog is doing something personal to us (or the trainer). It is the dog being the dog and making a bad choice.
ReplyDeleteWe took a seminar with a famous field trialer last year and one of his main points was to practice, practice, practice. If the dog is not getting something or doing it wrong it is because they need more practice (reinforcing that it is not personal). I do agree that if you get frustrated or if the dog is not getting it, it is important to take a break. In our training we have found that sometimes stopping and letting the dog think about it will make a difference when trying to teach something new or difficult. Not taking a break is one of the biggest mistakes I have seen in novice trainers.
I think my main problem is that I'm too much of a perfectionist (which I'm also working on) and when they do make a mistake or do something really off the wall bad I take it personally. Instead of going, oh whoops the dog is being a dog, I take it as a personal fail on my part and that I'm a bad trainer. Stupid overly emotional human. I sort of hate that about myself and I'm trying to work on it.
DeleteWe used to be that way too. Like we could never run a test unless the dogs were perfect in training. In fact when we first started out and knew nothing we trained with a guy who believed that. It was kind of a bummer and his dogs never improved. But once we started training with others including a pro, we learned that rarely will a dog be perfect. So we got over that Idea and now laugh when the dog (or handler) messes up more often than not. I have training video to day, you will see...lol.
DeleteWe've all been there (or at least I can relate as well)! Lola is not a super sensitive dog when it comes to training, but she has proved to be much more difficult than Rio ;). He's more of the sensitive, willing to please vs stubborn like miss Lola.
ReplyDeleteAwe thanks! It's nice to know I'm not alone. :) Sometimes my dogs can be stubborn, too! Especially when they are on prey, so I can totally relate. The day at the beach Zoe had a one track mind and nothing I said or did got through to her. All she cared about was that bunny and killing it. Which was scary because she could of been hit by a car up in the parking lot where we saw it. We were really far out before I let her off the leash and she just took off for the parking lot like a bullet and it was really hard chasing after her in deep, soft sand. It was a nightmare.
DeleteI love the honesty and authenticity that comes through. ALL pet parents make mistakes but so very few acknowledge them an seven fewer own them publicly, in hopes of educating others! I was really struck by two things: discussing how our own frustration can derail a training session and this statement:
ReplyDelete"When you've used punishment based techniques in the past, it's really easy to slip back into using them because they tend to be reinforcing for the handler. In example, the dog pulls on the leash so the handler jerks the leash, the dog stops pulling momentarily and the handler is then reinforced for jerking the leash. The dog didn't learn anything other than "sometimes my owner is scary and OUCH!""
You really crystalized this concept of me and I thank you! I'll be sharing this!
Thank you so much! I totally agree with you. I wish more people would acknowledge their mistakes so that they can get help with the things they are stuck on! I know several PR trainers who would never admit to getting upset with their dogs and I know for a fact that they have. I'm really glad you liked my post and thank you for sharing!
DeleteNala is incredibly sensitive, too, and shut down constantly in training when we first adopted her--so even though I'm not really a crossover trainer, I have to be careful with my possibly-crossover dog! Fortunately, I don't have any aversive training habits to break--but I do have to be careful not to yell at inanimate objects when I bump into them, lest I send her running to her crate in terror.
ReplyDeleteI have to confess, the bit about breathing wrong and freaking Zoe out made me laugh a little, although I know it's frustrating for you! :) I know that when Nala is bouncing around and being pushy inside, or disconnected and weird outside, my tendency is to heave a heavy sigh, too. So I incorporated that heavy sigh into the cue for her to relax and chill out. It's very convenient for me!
That's an excellent idea! Thank you for commenting! I'm going to try that with Zoe sometime!
DeleteOh, the mistakes I have made ... Too numerous to mention here. When I was training my German Shepherd, I was using traditional methods. It's SO difficult when they decide to be puppies instead of astute students. Arghh! The story ended well, though, and Star became the best behaved dog I've ever had. I lost her 2 years ago to cancer and still miss her every day. Thanks for hosting this Blog Hop. I just added my link for tips on puppy potty training. Cheers!
ReplyDeleteYeah, it can be hard when the dogs decide to be dogs! Star sounds like an amazing dog and I'm so sorry for your loss!
DeletePS. I'm not a host of the hop, but I do like participating! :)
This was a great post! Frustration can be so easy when training dogs, but it is so important to take lots of breaks, I couldn't agree more!
ReplyDeleteღ husky hugz ღ frum our pack at Love is being owned by a husky!
Thank you! :)
DeleteI'm guilty of this. I sometimes still jerk the leash and then I get so mad at myself. When both dogs are on leash it is serious competition to see who will lead the way, after a while I get frustrated and you guess it. I yank back. Or sometimes I am practically dragging my dogs away from something and I hate that too. I wish I had someone positive in my area to work with. I think that would be a fun way to train.
ReplyDeleteI've SO been there! It can be really aggravating when they are constantly pulling. The girls will sometimes do that when we go on hikes in new places. They get frustrated because we do more off leash runs at the big park so when we go hiking and they have to stay on the leash they get frustrated at not being able to get to all the smells. I really need to work on it more. Training LLW is the bane of my existence and yep, sometimes I yank back, too when I get to the end of my rope. Then I feel terrible and it haunts me for weeks. I'm actually more patient with other people's dogs than my own!
DeleteYour beach day reminded me so much of my own frustration when I first got my dog Valentino, about 6 months ago. Honestly, I had never trained a dog before, they all trained me! I knew with this coonhound that he needed me to be his trainer. Our first walks were horrifying with the pulling, both of us! I became so frustrated it was unbelievable. Funny thing, thinking about it late one night I realized that I was frustrated still over the loss of my previous dog and how I knew exactly what to expect on walks with her as we'd walked together for 14 years! When Valentino did not perform to her ghostly standards, I was frustrated. And the second that dog sensed my frustration, his behavior was worsened tenfold. I realized then that become the trainer my dog needed to be I had to love him just the way he is. Now every walk is enjoyable for the both of us and we both have been trained by the other to behave!
ReplyDeleteI struggle with exactly the same thing!! Jack really knows how to push my buttons, I wrote about it today but he bolted on me again yesterday and I lost my cool. :-(
ReplyDeleteI need to remind myself constantly to not take it personally, and that he's still practically a pup. He's just a huge challenge for me and of course being frustrated doesn't do anything but make it worse and him less likely to listen.
I love positive training, because it really helped me with Ziva. For some reason I'm much better at being patient with her than with my boys.
This is so wonderful; I'm glad to know I'm not alone when it comes to my frustrations. It doesn't happen nearly as often anymore, but it still comes out on occasion. And hearing about the beach story I can't imagine how anyone wouldn't be frustrated after that - I would have been so damn stressed.
ReplyDeleteAs you know, Ruby has been incredibly challenging and will never be reliable off leash and probably never be "cured" of her reactivity and prey drive. I've chosen to focus on her positive qualities - she is really the brightest, most intelligent dog I've ever known and she has taught me how to be patient and think about things differently. Thanks for joining the hop - sorry for the late comment, I thought I had commented earlier!
ReplyDeleteOh thanks for stopping by! I was actually sort of concerned that I might have offended with this post. It's not easy for me to admit that I lost patients with Zoe and I still feel very awful that it happened. Letting go of personal guilt is another fail. It's taken me some time to accept her fully for who she is. She wants to hunt for stuff and has a mind of her own. I know that she will never really be interested in playing my games and it's taken me a long time to get over it. I know that if the area isn't safe she can't be off leash. Luckily Thousand Acres is very safe on the west end of the park so she can be free there. I work on her recall every day and I try not to lose patients with her. I also do my best not to set her up to fail. It's all I can do.
DeleteI just love both of your dogs so much. They are so cute and I'm glad that I get to "know" them! :D